I had trouble getting up this morning.
Some Mondays (like yesterday), I have a full day of patients plus a 7:50 meeting plus a 5:00 meeting, so it’s essentially GO GO GO for nearly 11 hours.
I did take a 40 minute walk at lunchtime, which means my notes did not get finished – but my brain and body needed that!
Today I have another 7:30 am meeting. Thankfully our meetings are still remote. It will be a struggle when we eventually go back to in-person meetings. On one hand, I miss them. I especially hate being the speaker or running a meeting when I cannot tell if anyone is paying attention (often . . . probably not). On the other, a 7:30 meeting means leaving the house (for me) at 6:45 in order to be parked, situated, present at a conference table by 7:30 am. And that’s . . . really early.
I may try to get a quick run in post-meeting. These are the benefits of WFH. I also have about 34872 other things to do but somehow, it will work out.
Planning will help!
I found this post by Kelsey really fascinating. In it, she shares what it has been like to stay home, as well as what went into that decision. She also get specific with respect to $$$, which is somewhat uncommon.
As usual, my thoughts went to questioning my own choices. Even though I have a very rewarding career (both financially + in the deeper sense), it felt natural to ask: if this works for her, am I doing it wrong? (It = life). Her sharing of the # also kind of reinforced the fact that my choosing to work is fully a choice.
As in: we do not really really need my salary. Or Josh’s, for that matter. We definitely are not at the FIRE stage, but could live quite well without two incomes. Kelsey’s family does, and from what I can ‘see’ through the internet, it looks like they are living a great (and completely undeprived) life.
At the same time, as I conducted the natural thought experiment of what that would be like . . . I had no real yearning to actually try it. And for a moment I felt kind of guilty but then I realized I am in a great spot. I enjoy my job but I don’t “need” it. I have built enough flexibility that I feel like I can be there for the kids when needed. I am at a leadership position at a relatively young age and have lots of options up ahead of me. And exchanging my hours at work for hours of housework (ie: laundry, cleaning, etc) is a bonus.
I don’t know exactly where I’m going with this, but I really appreciate Kelsey for sharing as much as she did and I’m so happy for her that things are going really well for her at home! I’m hoping her ‘side gigs’ will continue to grow as her kids do, as I know she loves doing them and is a great writer and speaker.
Today’s BOBW ep features Jesse Mecham, founder of YNAB! This definitely ties into the above, but was unintentional!
Our ep here
Laura & me on the YNAB podcast: here
31 Comments
Hi Sarah- unrelated to the above, but could you tell me where I can find the show notes for last week’s (4/6) episode? I would like to buy the water bottle your guest mentioned. thanks!!
Here you go!
https://shopthebuyguide.com/blog//the-story-of-the-cup
It didn’t make it into the show notes (sometimes I think I will remember – and then forget!) but glad you asked!
Show notes for BOBW are always on Laura’s blog – that ep here: https://lauravanderkam.com/2021/04/best-of-both-worlds-podcast-double-wins-with-megan-hyatt-miller/
Thanks, Sarah! Ordered. I’m trying to hydrate more 😉
I will have to go check out Kelsey’s post. I know that I am not meant to be a SAHM. I wondered if I was when I went back to work after having our first child. I really struggled from months 5-10 as we barely saw him. He napped so poorly at school so went to bed so early. But now I can see that is a temporary stage of life. I go back to work next week from this maternity leave and it helps to know it might be tough but I just need to push through. I really love my job and the satisfaction I get from it. And I know our boys will get more out of their spanish immersion daycare (both social and educational) than we could provide. Some people are great at coming up with enrichment activities but that is just not me. I have a huge amount of respect for SAHMs. I think that is an under appreciated role in our society! I really liked what Emily Oster has to say about it in Cribsheet. She basically said neither decision is measurably better for the children so the decision should be based on what the mom wants to do. In our case we also don’t need both of our salaries but I take comfort knowing we could go without one of our salaries if something happened to one of our jobs – which could potentially happen as we both work for asset management companies which is a very volatile industry!
That link to Kelsey’s write up was so so interesting to me – and she made so many points that I have sort of felt for years but have been unable to articulate (mostly related to feeling like even with routines, there was too much to pack into one day and we just needed more breathing space – which I now have, thanks to the pandemic and no commute!). But the validation that it’s okay to want to spend some time on house stuff (cleaning, laundry) because it makes the house feel more peaceful – and therefore lets me focus more on kids when they are home with me – was huge to me. I don’t think I could quit my job entirely but this certainly helps me articulate why going down to less than 1.0 FTE is appealing.
Also, I loved the listener question on today’s BOBW about childcare that included real numbers. Would also still love the results of an anonymous survey of readers/listeners where people could (anonymously!) share their income, childcare spending, and what is included (nanny who also does housework, just before/after care, full time daycare, etc.). Money is such a sore subject but it’s so hard to really get a sense of things without actual numbers!
Sarah, I love you and your blog and podcasts but sometimes posts like this make me sad and cringe. I am a highly-paid attorney and my husband works full-time as well, but we could never dream of the financial freedom for one (or both!!!!) of us to not work. I know this is your space and what not, but sometimes I think your discussions in this regard lack awareness and sensitivity for your readers, the majority of whom I suspect work and work and work only to scrape what little savings they can together.
I’m actually not sure that’s true for the majority of my readers. I’m also genuinely curious – if you are a highly paid attorney, why is it you both have to work? Kelsey referenced specifically they are choosing to live off of one income that I suspect is similar or lower than what many attorneys earn?
We live on one salary that is less than Kelsey’s. I don’t say that in a “Oh, anyone could do it if they wanted!” kind of way, just for context: As someone operating with what I suspect is a substantially smaller income than most people here, the discussion doesn’t bother me in the slightest- if anything, I find it really helpful to be reminded that no matter how much money you make (and no matter how much you love your job) these decisions about working and child-rearing don’t magically become simple and easy! It’s so individual, and not just specific to each family but to each point in time as well. Love hearing about how you scaled back a little and have now scaled up again as your needs have changed.
I appreciated this post but also feel a bit of a sting when I read stuff like this. Obviously we could all give up a lot, and definitely could budget better, travel less (well, back when travel was a thing), eat more cheaply, do less paid activities/memberships with the kids, etc. But thanks to enormous student debt (unfortunately, since I come from a lower SES family, I didn’t have parental support in either an actual monetary or financial literacy sense), I really don’t think eliminating one or both incomes would be feasible for a number of years at least. So despite also being an (formerly highly, now medium-paid) attorney and having a professional spouse, all the savings in the world won’t eliminate the student debt for a few years…
Oh and to clarify – absolutely we could not live at the current level of spending we have now on one income! That definitely is not what I meant. I wish our savings rate was that high, but no. Not even close!
(And reading it again it could be interpreted that we don’t need either salary. Also definitely not the case. Or even remotely close. I just meant we could live off of my salary OR his, with different lifestyle choices.)
This is a really sad comment by Emily. My initial reaction is that you need to take a hard look at your budget because this should simply not be the case. Lots of folks confuse wants with needs. I like the saying “you can buy anything, but not everything”.
My compensation is 3x that of my husband (he’s an RN) but we could absolutely live on just his salary, if necessary. And that’s in SoCal.
I would love to see such a survey, especially as someone who is actually middle class.
I think it’s a great idea!
I agree and would be happy to participate in the survey! In the last year and a half I’ve gone from being the (somewhat accidental) breadwinner in our household to working PT (I took advantage of a job change to try out working PT and dropped even more due to covid) and it has really impacted me in some unexpected ways (and taught me that I would not be very happy being a full time SAHM, although I’m very grateful to have had the opportunity to spend so much time with my young daughter). I identified a lot with some of the things Kelsey wrote about, and also the perspective Grateful Kate mentioned below about appreciating both more when you’re not doing either all.the.time. I am also respectfully curious about Emily’s response. Although like you said Sarah, we’d have to make some different choices w/r/t our budget/spending, we would be fine on either one of our incomes (both < 6 figures currently). I know there are a lot of factors that impact personal finances, though, and we live in an area with a relatively low cost of living. It was important to us to keep our mortgage <= $1k/mo, which I know is just not possible in some areas, although I would also hope pay would be better there too. I wonder, Sarah, if she thought you meant NEITHER of you needed to work? I read it as, your family could live on EITHER yours or Josh’s income, but I could see someone reading that differently (and I may have misunderstood!). It’s an interesting conversation, and I like hearing what others do to make things work best in their lives. Sometimes you can get some great ideas from someone whose situation is very different than yours if you reconsider some of your “fixed” decisions that are actually still choices!
I am definitely not cut out to stay home. I wouldn’t be good at it. I love my kids. I love my job. And I love that I have the ability to not do laundry or clean my own house.
I had a nurse co-worker that said something years ago that I always remember. Our inpatient nursing unit was switching to (optional)12 hour shifts and she chose to stick with 8 hour shifts. She said, “I don’t like too much of either world all at one time. I like to work for part of the day, and then be with my kids for part of the day. Too much of either at one time gets to be too much for me!” I thought that was an interesting perspective.
I think that’s how I feel too about being a working mom in general. Some of each world is nice. Balance. I appreciate the other more as a result, I think. My biggest gripe with being a working parent is trying to juggle all the other stuff you have to do (household type stuff/ errands/ etc.). Clearly, if you don’t work outside the home, there is just naturally more time for some of that. I think the hardest person to be is a working parent who still cannot afford to outsource much at all (so, is still responsible for all the cooking, cleaning, shopping, errands + job + family time + leisure time + ….everything) OR who doesn’t have any flexibility in his or her job. I’m much happier now as a working mom with a more flexible job than I used to be when I had shift work inpatient job (though that job had perks too! Lots of days off!).
I really enjoy posts/links like this as they require reflection and also open us up to new ways of thinking. One take home? It doesn’t have to be an either/or decision – there are so many places to fall on the spectrum of career/family balance.
Gillian mentions awareness that she’s not cut out to stay at home; I feel you, Sarah, may vacillate a bit more on this? You love your job, love your kids but it seems (at least reading between blog lines) that *some* days you wonder (wistfully or just out of curiosity) what it would be really dial back on your career/be a stay-at-home parent. I feel the same superficial (not quite the right word?) vacillation about having a 3rd child. Some days I wonder what it would be like to add another to our brood and it feels tempting, and I’ll daydream about where a new little one would sleep, imagine my existing kiddos adjusting to life with a sibling, and look longingly at other friends still having more children. BUT when I really stop, really consider the cost (I had traumatic births that both required intervention, medical issues with breastfeeding, infant allergies, reflux/colic in both and a host of other challenges), I realize that it’s okay to think through the options and be wistful, but also to understand that it 100% isn’t for me. If I had no choice, could I do it? Sure. But while I have a choice, our family stays firmly at 2 kids. And it’s okay to weigh options, even if I know I’m firmly decided on a particular course of action.
In terms of being home: I’m one of those part-time-work-from-home people Kelsey’s article indirectly references. I work about 10-15 hours of paid work each week, but because I fit it in and around my home responsibilities, I often feel like I am “just” a stay-at-home-Mom. While there are many days I wish for financial, intellectual and other reasons that I still worked outside of the home, I also realize that the pace of our family structure is fundamentally important to me. While it can be hard to do laundry day after day, week after week, I also think it would be hard for my personality to come home day after day at 5:30 exhausted, juggling schedules, throwing together meals, rushing between spots to do child pickup etc.
I also resonated with the fact that Kelsey and her husband consider his salary to be jointly earned. I tell myself that over and over again. While my financial contributions are relatively negligible, my husband works in a high-paying, high-stress, high-demand job. He absolutely could not stay in this job without my support at home. I manage almost all day-to-day home/child management. I often discount the fact that my being there to support him practically (and yes, sometimes, that even means being barefoot in the kitchen) is what allows us to save aggressively, provide wonderful opportunities for our kids etc. I also help him directly with his work, helping him prepare presentations, think through critical business decisions, and otherwise act as a sounding board. Something I doubt I could do if I was working full time.
In reference to Emily’s comment, I think that outputs steadily rise with inputs. Our monthly expenditures are HUGE now compared to what it was like earlier in our marriage. Sure having a kids and mortgage impact things, but we also just hire out/pay for conveniences like we never would have when we made significantly less money. If we cut our income down significantly tomorrow we could manage, for sure, but would have to make some lifestyle adjustments (and that’s with us carrying no debt, aside from a small remaining mortgage, and making consistently budget-conscious decisions). Kelsey, for instance, has had posts before discussing downsizing to a single vehicle, paying off their house etc. Some of those big financial adjustments could be required to go down to a single income. Also – where you live, lingering student debts, and so many other factors can play a huge role in current financial status relatively irrespective of current income…
Your opportunity cost of stopping work would be way higher than Kelsey’s was, right? And I’d guess you and Josh’s salaries are closer to equal though maybe not. Both seem really key to me. Obviously if one partner makes 25% of the household income, the decision for them to quit is a lot different from someone who makes 40-50%.
I earn close to 2/3 of his salary. I’m sure it would play a role. But I’m glad we don’t have a huge differential as it helps my contribution feel meaningful.
Love to see to of my favorite bloggers/podcasters discussing a topic that I’ve thought a lot about over the years. I really wish there could be less guilt around all of it- I feel like women need to justify individual decisions that are so shaped by the society that we live in. SHU- I’ve so appreciated your previous posts about designing your ideal day and career crafting to really help me focus on what I feel may be missing. It is easy to fall into “the grass is always greener” type thinking when the reality of any working/at-home situation is very complex. I also appreciate the continuing discussion as your kids age- I felt so much pressure to figure out a solution when my daughter was born but so much happens as they grow. Six years and several job changes into working mom life- I’m still figuring it out as I go.
I make more than my husband by a bit and I’m so happy not because of the fact- he is not materialistic and doesn’t spend big or have a sense of displaying wealth as status- I’m not judging this- just saying he doesn’t wear nice clothes even though he could afford them, lol- but I don’t think he’d be happy not having any income, even though we could manage on mine. Only reason I care is that I would be miserable as a SAHM. Not because of not having career (which I like! But it’s not my identity) or wanting a certain standard of living (though big adjustment of just his salary- although if that, he’d probably be making more at this point?) but I just cannot live without some sort of external structure, adrenaline; deadlines. Somewhat intellectual engagement but heck I could just read a lot of interesting books I don’t have time for now. Part of it is that I’m an introvert and so I don’t want to do all the meetings and clubs and groups and events that I could as a SAHM but also need structure, purpose, and I love being a mom but I can’t plan an open day? Maybe I would have 6 kids by now if I wasn’t working but um then we’d be really broke because I can’t and don’t and won’t cook and while I think I’m a great mom, things like sewing or repurposing or being thrifty are like- aaaaahhh! I don’t need stuff so I can be cheap but please don’t make me craft, lol.
Looking at prior comments- maybe so much about student loan debt, decisions re mortgage, cost of living? We could be in a house three times as expensive but I don’t care because I want to travel. Our kids could be at private school but I’m not paying for that! I’m a public school girl and yeah bought the right house to be able to say it. I could drive my cars until they break but I won’t, I could be thrifty with groceries but I won’t. But I don’t care about my purse or how my hair looks. So many variables. Including how much you save before you start having kids, maybe you meant to and maybe you took a while… but then it makes me feel better and less trapped (because, don’t be a lawyer?) to realize we COULD if we WOULD live on a fourth of current income IF someone had time for planning required to make it work/ which someone would, or if my husband, he’d just never buy anything new or anything at all unless truly truly necessary.
I make more than my husband by a bit and I’m so happy not because of the fact- he is not materialistic and doesn’t spend big or have a sense of displaying wealth as status- I’m not judging this- just saying he doesn’t wear nice clothes even though he could afford them, lol- but I don’t think he’d be happy not having any income, even though we could manage on mine. Only reason I care is that I would be miserable as a SAHM. Not because of not having career (which I like! But it’s not my identity) or wanting a certain standard of living (though big adjustment of just his salary- although if that, he’d probably be making more at this point?) but I just cannot live without some sort of external structure, adrenaline; deadlines. Somewhat intellectual engagement but heck I could just read a lot of interesting books I don’t have time for now. Part of it is that I’m an introvert and so I don’t want to do all the meetings and clubs and groups and events that I could as a SAHM but also need structure, purpose, and I love being a mom but I can’t plan an open day? Maybe I would have 6 kids by now if I wasn’t working but um then we’d be really broke because I can’t and don’t and won’t cook and while I think I’m a great mom, things like sewing or repurposing or being thrifty are like- aaaaahhh! I don’t need stuff so I can be cheap but please don’t make me craft, lol.
Looking at prior comments- maybe so much about student loan debt, decisions re mortgage, cost of living? We could be in a house three times as expensive but I don’t care because I want to travel. Our kids could be at private school but I’m not paying for that! I’m a public school girl and yeah bought the right house to be able to say it. I could drive my cars until they break but I won’t, I could be thrifty with groceries but I won’t. But I don’t care about my purse or how my hair looks. So many variables. Including how much you save before you start having kids, maybe you meant to and maybe you took a while… but then it makes me feel better and less trapped (because, don’t be a lawyer?) to realize we COULD if we WOULD live on a fourth of current income IF someone had time for planning required to make it work/ which someone would, or if my husband, he’d just never buy anything new or anything at all unless truly truly necessary.
Sarah – thanks for the link. It was an interesting post but didn’t make me wonder about switching to SAHM. My husband and I are both physicians (me peds neuro and him adult GI) and want 3 kids. I love following your story because you are basically where I want to be in a few years! Two questions for you – could you talk a bit more sometime about your decision to go back up to 1.0 FTE? It’s my dream to actually cut back to about 0.8 in a few years once loans are paid off so that I can have one day during the week at home to spend more time w my daughter (plus hopefully other kids who don’t exist yet) and do a little bit more household stuff like cooking more elaborate dinners (which I enjoy). But I fear that I would end up doing a lot of work/notes/phone calls on that day. Is this what you found? Second question – have you ever pushed back about the early meetings? I assume at least some are for the residents which you can’t get around, but are some faculty meetings too? I’m a new attending and was surprised at how many 7 AM and 5 PM meetings are getting called. Most of my colleagues either don’t have kids or aren’t the primary parent. I haven’t made a fuss about it yet but it is starting to get on my nerves, especially because at my prior institution most faculty meetings happened over the noon hour, so I know it’s possible. Would appreciate any thoughts!
I’m a PhD that does a considerable amount of research with physicians and at our institution depending on the clinic group if I need to meet with more than 1 we often have to meet at 7am or after 5pm because of their conflicting clinic schedules. Many of the grand rounds are at 7am for the same reason. I will say MOST of them have kids and many of the kids are with mine at our work daycare and they do dropoff/pickup. I can’t speak for Sarah, but I imagine when you need a larger number of physicians they need to schedule meeting times outside of clinic hours.
Additional comment about our institution’s daycare. It’s open 6:30am – 6pm to accommodate our clinical staff hours. It is a highly valued benefit at our institution.
That is a nice benefit. We don’t have that. I have a nanny who could come that early but it’s not what she really wants to do. But at my prior job there were about twice the number of physicians in the group as at my current job and they still made 12 pm meetings work, I think because the parents wouldn’t have made it to the after hours meetings.
Yeah, it’s an incredible benefit and I think is a big component in retention of physician and PhD researchers with kids here and reflective of an incredibly supportive environment (even with some 7am meetings…). I’m sure this is all institution dependent and ours has a very high level of research activity, but our 12pm timeslots are usually reserved for research seminars. It’s interesting comparing the different cultures across institutions and what works at one might not work at another.
LOVE this. I am in the exact same boat. Either of us could quit and stay home. Neither of us wants to. I sort of have the best of both because my enormous job flexibility (academia) lets me stay home with our babies until they are 3, and my husband works remotely even outside of COVID life a couple days a week so I can still go to campus, etc. I liked Kelsey’s discussion of fulfillment because this is where I also draw the line. I would quit, I think, if I didn’t love my job anymore.
We could comfortably live off my salary without having to make extreme lifestyle adjustments, as we live fairly modestly relative to our current household income. We could live off my husband’s income (which is above the average household income in the US, but lower than the average household income in DC) if we made extreme changes (like moving from DC, where I work, to Baltimore, where my husband works, because the cost of living in Baltimore is significantly lower). But living on one salary would come at the expense of our long term financial plan, which is based on two pensions + Social Security for us to live on while also having fully maxed out retirement investment accounts for our disabled daughter to live on after we die. Although planning for two generations at once isn’t necessary for most people (even if they’d like to attain it), whenever I hear about a family living on one salary, I wonder less about them having enough money for their current lives, and wonder more about whether they have enough money for their future lives. Things like paying for college, affording retirement, navigating health crises and disability, etc. But I’m just nosy like that.
That said, I totally agree with Kelsey’s assessments of the stresses of both parents working outside the home. But in my case, being a stay at home parent holds zero appeal for me. Not because I’m so drawn to working. As Katie G. put it above, I like my work but it’s not my identity. If I could afford not to work, I likely wouldn’t, at least not the number of hours I put in now. I genuinely enjoy and value homemaking, and wish I had more time for it in my life. Also we have a 100 year old home which certainly needs more time and attention paid to it. I would readily stay at home to manage the household, but to stay at home to parent my child? Nope. Not interested. When I picture how I spend my time with my two year old, stretching on indefinitely, well, I could just cry. And not in a good way. So I keep sending her to daycare, and I keep working, and I have no guilt or shame about it.
The big element that is missing for me in Kelsey’s post is the presence of the social support network (immediate family and friends). At this point, our family of four (two full time working adults and two kids) lives in a state where neither of us (my husband or myself) grew up. We moved here following the job opportunities, and have no family around. If I would decide to be a SAHM, I would like to do it somewhere close to my family so that i could enjoy all that time i would have for the social interactions. But then again, we couldn’t find any possible senior-level positions for my husband anywhere close to my family. The more i think about it, the only possible “way out” of this race seems to getting more flexibility at work, which eventually comes with achieving a senior level position for me.
Thank you for sharing my post, Sarah! I enjoyed your reflections and the thoughtful comments of your readers. A few things you and readers brought up (like our financial plans for retirement, cost of living in our area, my social support as an at-home parent, and more details about how my job was and wasn’t fulfilling) have me percolating a follow up to the post as these are things that factored in and that we thought about.
As for your own reflections, although I don’t have in-depth knowledge about your job from what you share about it I think your job seems both more fulfilling and has more opportunity for growth/advancement in addition to much greater earning potential. Which of course is not to say that because I was not experiencing those things that the clear answer was to quit my job but it was a big factor. I think you do an amazing job at dedicating yourself to a career that you love which also makes a difference in people’s lives while also being a present parent who spends a lot of time with her kids plus you have three creative side hustles in this blog, Best of Both Worlds, and Best Laid Plans. Pretty damn awesome if you ask me. I think it is always interesting to really try to put ourselves in the shoes of a different situation, whether that’s a different career, living in a different city, etc and see what that feels like. We might see elements that we like but so often I think it gives us renewed perspective and feeling that we do, in fact, continue to choose our current life choices.