You know when the universe (or something else, whatever you beliefs may be) seems to throw 3 things at once in your path that are similar?
That happened to me today.
#1 was admittedly a couple of days ago (not today), when Laura and I were recording an upcoming BOBW episode on rest and trading off — she had some excellent ideas that facilitate mental load sharing, and I think it will be a good one! Then today (#2), on Kendra Adachi’s podcast this morning (very good episode!) she discussed her current “kid to do list” method and also recommended a course designed to help parents teach their kids to take on more (physical load AND mental load).
Finally (#3), an episode of We Can Do Hard Things (which I subscribe to but admittedly rarely actually listen to) with Kate Mangino was about mental load with a major theme being the idea of making sure everyone in the home does some of the ‘noticing’, as in noticing where the needs are for each person and in shared physical surroundings. I think there is a big anticipatory (or, you got me, planning) component to noticing as well as the reactive moment-to-moment aspect, too.
An aside: this isn’t entirely related to the noticing concept but I will say Kendra’s method was super interesting and honestly I wish I had tried it this summer (I guess it’s not too late but it kind of is, we have 2 weeks left after this one but the kids are mostly away, and then our family trip and that’s about it). She gives them lists of things to do each day, with their access to screens on the following day contingent on the completion of said list.
The list contains things like: movement, household chores, tidy room, read for XYZ amount of time, etc. She varies the list a bit from day to day. She uses the following day’s screen time so that they do not just rush through the entire list and so they can sometimes enjoy some down/screen time in the morning if that fits the day’s rhythms better. It also gives them a bit more independence and forces them to use their own planning / time management / prioritization skills to get things done.
NOW. I am not having a summer really anything like Kendra’s. I’m generally going to work, or working at home, and they are busy at camp most days. This was not accidental — for us, this is what works best right now for summer. I think camp is generally a great thing and my kids enjoy camp a lot. So maybe the list method would not have fit well. Still, I have noticed there has not been a lot of reading (my/Josh’s fault, really, we have not enforced it) and I also think we really REALLY need to up our game on having the kids pitch in with household stuff. Maybe we will try this on the weekends and see how it goes.
It also may be one of those parenting things that sounds amazing in practice but then fails when I try it on my particular kids (umm . . pretty much everything Dr Becky ever said to do fits into this category, I’m sad to say — and I often love her ideas! In THEORY!!). But it still seemed very smart.
Okay. BACK to noticing, and getting kids to take more responsibility so that everyone wins. I might buy the aforementioned course. (It costs $197. I actually really dislike when I have to scroll REALLY far to find the price – I personally try not to do that with my own courses — so I am including it here 🙂 ). I have no affiliation with said course nor any personal experience with it, yet, but it seems like it might be helpful.
Side note #2: I am also kind of glad some of these mental load conversions have shifted from “OH MY GOD THIS ALL SUCKS” to “what can we all do to make things better? here are a bunch of interesting ideas and things to think about and try!”. I’m not saying that any one lifehack can erase generations of gender inequality but I also feel like it’s good to be looking for ways to spur progress wherever they can be found.
28 Comments
LOVE the idea of helping kids learn to notice. I tripped JUST THIS VERY MORNING over a ton of shoes in the garage right in front of the door to the house and yelled at everyone to come pick up their stuff. Which they did. And I was like WHY DIDN’T YOU DO THIS BEFORE I HAD TO ASK, and Cooper was, like, so genuine when he sad he didn’t notice! Like, HE REALLY DID NOT NOTICE.
Related: Can you say more about why Dr. Becky doesn’t work for you? This is so interesting. I am listening to her book right now and just freaking LOVING it
One more thing— some of my kids have ADHD, and I do not think the next day’s screen time would be motivating for them. Like they really do lack the executive function to conceptualize this. Sure, they are working toward figuring it out, but it seems like a neurotypical reward?
haha yes. I feel bad. I like what she talks about, too. But I personally struggle with implementation. Maybe my kids sense that it doesn’t sound genuine or something. But when I’ve tried to use the exact language she has it just doesn’t seem to have the same overall effect she talks about. That said, she really did help me decide not to force my kids to go back to traditional overnight camp (I had lot of pressure from certain family and friends around this) and I’m so glad I went with her recommendation — in addition so some of the readers here!! — not to push it.
I’ve had kids in full time camp, and I’ve also had them stay home, for the summer. When they’re in camps even if part time, there just isn’t enough hours in the day to tackle a list that includes reading, chores, noticing, leisurely being bored, etc! Yet when they are home all day, I’m too frustrated to have them tackle such a list, not to mention I have a full time job, albeit working from home. I’m just not sure there is a solution for full time working parents, our kids will just have to learn to notice when they’re 27! 😀
I get this Tram, we spend 2 weeks at my parents, and my son happily read every day with no moaning. Just sat in his hammock swing, reading, which is so much harder when he’s at home, b/c he’s tired from school etc.
I can’t with Dr Becky. I feel like my kid senses that this is not me talking and a loving but firm “absolutely not…” seems to work better.
We are pretty screentime light and will often skip whole days, so I don’t think Kendra’s system would work for us but a to do list on specific days does really help. I write a list with some household tasks, some fun stuff, reading, etc, hand it to my kid, and say “you can watch a movie when it’s done!”
Coree, you are me and I am you. I tried the whole Dr Becky approach and gosh, it’s just not me. Also, very light on screen time, and no screens on school days, like it or not. I have started saying “are you done with lunch? Great, plate in the sink, find something to do.” Also works well since it’s firm. If I try to do the whole noticing situation, my kids would be yeah, there are toys on the floor. So?
The ADHD reaction to being asked to do things they don’t want to do is kind of a big deal and good to keep in mind as you are working through a chore list. I’ve found it’s good to have some strategies for handling it. My older son is a typical kid and doesn’t enjoy doing chores, but after the initial “ughhh” he’ll just do them.
My husband and my younger son, who both gave ADHD, I now expect pushback literally every.single.time. Especially if it’s something they don’t want to do at all or it’s a big chore. Breaking chores down into smaller tasks, offering to help, and rewards for a job well done all make it easier. I’m still learning what works best. The trouble is the ADHD family members *always* have a bigger mess to clean up…so it’s challenging!
I’d love other ideas to how to get people with ADHD to do chores! Unfortunately, it’s a common problem, I think.
For my kids it is not so much that they don’t WANT to do it. It’s more that they are overwhelmed by how and when– the executive function pieces. We do lists they can check off and are big on routines–
Both help
This aligns with the fact that the mere act of putting on clothing and shoes for school (or camp) sometimes feels like it takes infinity minutes in our home . . .
My son got his first pair of lace up shoes and I don’t know what I was thinking. School shoes have to be black and I found the last pair of velcro shoes in his (enormous… size 3 at age 7) size, b/c I can’t cope with him tying his shoes on school mornings.
This is a big thing for us as well! My oldest – with ASD rather than ADHD – is totally demand avoidant. Asking him to do anything means gearing up for a battle. There’s some swirling combination of overwhelm, anxiety and just not wanting to do stuff he doesn’t want to do. Anyway, it’s difficult because my younger two can and will help, but they (rightly) feel like it’s not fair that their older brother doesn’t have to do as much. So, up to this point, we’ve just focused on them doing *their* stuff. They have to pick up their own toys, put away their own clothes, and clean up their own dishes, but they haven’t had to do community chores like putting away the dishes or taking out the trash on a regular basis. #solidarity
The noticing is honestly something I’ve almost given up on teaching our kids, and I just hope it happens with time/maturity or something. Getting them to help more with the physical load is also kind of a never ending struggle, but I do feel we’ve made a little headway over the last few months. My kids are 10 and 11. We have a dedicated Power Hour on the weekend (usually Sunday afternoon) in which everyone gets a list of chores and that has been going pretty well. My husband and I are doing chores at the same time which seems to help. We usually do a combo of yard work (weeding, picking up annoying spiky balls that fall from a particular tree, raking, depending on season), vacuuming, folding laundry, and cleaning the bathrooms. Then during the rest of the week, the kids are supposed to take out the trash and empty the dishwasher when we ask them to. This is a little more annoying because they fight over whose turn it is, etc. Also, both of those tasks kind of need to be done immediately when they’re needed, and sometimes the kids are resistant if they’re in the middle of something else.
I love Kendra’s idea re: the list, but like you, my kids are in camp all day so this just doesn’t seem to work for us in practice. They’ve done very little reading this summer, and pretty much only on the weekend or, for my daughter, right before bed because she has a hard time falling asleep. I want and need them to be in camp right now so maybe this is just something to consider for when they hit the age of not being in camp all day (not too far off for us–the all-day camps here seem to end by age 13).
I’m with you, Emily, on the attrition with teaching my kids to notice, and the attempt to model how a family all contributes to the proper functioning of a family and household. I have tried lists of every kind for years (laminated to wipe off each day, checklist that changes each day, accumulation of stars toward a reward, etc, etc) and what I find is that everything just falls back to me to micromanage, which is actually more exhausting than just doing it all myself. BUT…that doesn’t teach the kids anything, so we press on to find new ways to make the character-building a successful process. Glad others are still pressing on too and sharing ideas!
Oh – that course looks very intriguing! I would be SO curious to hear your thoughts if you end up trying it! I am VERY tempted b/c the thought of teaching the kids to notice seems life changing!
There is also a free guide that you can get from Sam Kelly – I also listened to the Lazy Genius podcast and have been looking into this. I plan to try the free guide before buying the course. 🙂
I was able to listen to a podcast Sam was on to get some ideas also. Good luck!
I do feel like there are more conversations and more awareness around the mental load. My mom did everything when I was a child! Our household is far more egalitarian. I traveled with a colleague this week and she was stressing about her husband getting their son to a mountain biking event because she is the one with the account login with location info and such. We do more of a complete ownership approach to activities so far (which is feasible at my kids’ ages). So I handle swimming lessons and my husband handles soccer/t-ball/golf/etc. But he is the athlete in our family so it makes more sense for him to own those things. I then am the point person for the toddler during our son’s activities. It helps that we work nearly the exact same hours. I travel quite a bit now so it makes even more sense for him to own the sports stuff since I am often gone during the week.
I do want to think about ways to get our kids to help a little bit around the house. The 6yo should be able to do a few things. I would have to relax some of my standards around the state of their dressers, though… and messy dressers are kind of triggering for me! So I just own folding and putting away their clothes so I don’t have to look at messy, disorganized drawers. But that’s a pick your battles decision.
I was in Canada a few years ago, and my 2 very senior colleagues kept getting middle of the night calls from their kids and husbands asking for information and my goodness… I think travelling 30% of the time from when T was 4 really helped equalise this stuff. Not being physically there meant my husband is incredibly capable.
The fact that I travel a lot (although not as much as you!!) means my husband is extra capable/involved as well. The uncanny thing about my colleague’s situation is that her husband does not work outside the home. But she still has the sports engine account! I feel that is the reverse was true and a women was the stay at home parent, it would be so unlikely that the working dad would manage the activity account!
I have nearly 18yo twin daughters and have found routine works best for us. Easier at home during school terms when timetable similar but some things translate. We’re away on holiday with family currently and they still know to do dishes after dinner and where to put their dirty laundry (don’t make them put machine on as at my sisters holiday home and she is very particular). Have just discovered one of my girls has an autistic brain which explains why routine and change signalled well in advance is what has always worked best. Barking instructions at last minute just triggers a meltdown and a resentful twin ending up doing chores for 2.
My 10 year old had two weeks of nothing between camps/travel. I started leaving a couple notes (dry erase marker on the fridge) each day … general reminders. When she responded well to that I started adding things. She did so much I ended up paying her! She really got into the idea of helping. So I think the list idea can work.
Ooh, I’ve never heard of We Can Do Hard Things but I’m going to listen to, not the episode you mentioned (although maybe that as well) but the one before it. It sounds like an intelligent discussion about the political situation which is much needed.
i do listen to Lazy Genius, but I haven’t heard that particular episode yet. I have to say that your kids have so many enriching activities, and if they’re really loving camp, then I think your summer is a success even without a ton of reading. So I wouldn’t feel bad about that! On the other hand, if you’re truly unhappy with the way household chores are getting done, or not done, then I can see why you would want to make a change.
Good food for thoughts. Few ideas: the noticing and responsibilities come with maturity. Sofía now is more responsible and knows her to do lists without me constantly nagging. Lizzy at 8 is still work in progress. Tidying up is a constant reminder for all of us husband included because we are spoiled to have a helper who does the lion share of the work. on weekend girls are tasks to do the tidying up so they get to learn to notice where needs tidying up. Mental load: I think I’ve given up to ask for more. Although recently I noticed that husband notices other type of things that I totally ignore like anything related to car, trash, cat. Realizing that he also notices things that I don’t notice made me feel better, like fairer.
Finally, I don’t really like the idea of treating kids with screen time. Wouldn’t that implicitly make it a treat? Like something special? Will listen to the episodes.
I’m inclined to agree with you re: screen time. Treating it like a reward implicitly encourages kids to view other activities as chores they have to get to so they can get to their screen time — where the real fun happens. The only requirement we have for our kids to play Nintendo or whatever is that they have to complete some summer math first, but we expect them to do other things (including cleaning up) just as part of being a human in the world, not so they can get screen time afterwards.
I also think the same thing about my husband re: noticing. I get so fixated on all the things I alone notice but overlook all of the things HE alone notices, which is a lot, so I feel like it evens out and allows us both our own area of ownership. That’s not to say it’s not a work in progress to get everyone on board with picking up after themselves, but I’m also not keeping score.
I listened to the same podcast episode from the lazy genius yesterday and totally had the same reaction to the noticing strategy. I went right to the course and I have it in my cart right now. I love the idea!!! I also plan to try her screen time strategy this weekend. I found that episode to be gold!
My child is 4 year old, so we have started with small routine things that just foster the idea that I’m not a maid 🙂 plates go to the kitchen after meals, clothes go in the hamper, helping with dinner prep when interested, helping in the yard when we’re doing yard work, helping with the Sunday night reset in whatever way we can get her to.
Question: with these (yours and lots of commenters) older kids having activities until like 9:00 at night, when are they supposed to be doing chores and things like that though? Is there time before activities that is not devoted to homework or being transported to/from school? With my kid being so little, I can’t wrap my brain around how this schedule leaves time or energy for noticing and acting upon noticed needs after doing school, homework, and a sport (rigorous exercise!). It’s amazing kids have so many enriching extracurriculars nowadays but there are only so many hours in the day and so much energy to allocate.
Currently, we are inclined to do minimal structures activities aside from ones occurring at her school (we have swim class once a week walking distance from my house), based on our families vibe and her high need for unstructured downtime. As she gets older, she will certainly be weighing in on this decision and I’m so curious to see what she’ll get into! The next chapter of parenting has such different components from the one I’m currently in
Some of the night activities don’t start until 7:15 so there is a big gap between getting home from school and the activity. I am not really talking detailed chore lists either – I’m talking about helping with post dinner cleanup, putting your laundry away, generally picking up after yourself or like refilling the toilet paper if you notice you’ve used it …
That’s totally fair! It’s a seemingly universal challenge – loving all the solidarity in the comments. Hoping the kids can show some improvement on that front for you guys
I listened to the we can do hard things ep on my long run this morning. I also subscribe but skip many of their eps. This was sooo good!! I love the distinction between cognitive and physical labor. Our physical labor is very evenly split, the cognitive split is way harder.
We did have a lot of the conversations that the guest suggests you have before we got married. In particular we talked a lot about our families of origin and how we would want our family to differ. I think if I had gotten married younger, I would not have thought to have those conversations, partially because of lack of confidence to bring those topics up, partly never I hadn’t seen other models for the division of labor/witnessed pain points in other marriages. But it probably so helps that my husband and I are both very left brained and pragmatic about things, too. Hopefully we can bring that pragmatism to conversations about cognitive labor.